warhammer 2570 variant

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Postby felderup » Wed May 28, 2008 7:53 am

yer gonna have to add pilot legs in there.
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Postby Hana Yuriko » Thu May 29, 2008 12:29 am

I've highlighted a lot of wasted screen space:

http://lizzy777.googlepages.com/cockpitrender1yt4.jpg

If you can figure out how to optimize your layout, then you'll have a better design.

Remember, this is a bipedal walking war machine. Not a Cessna. And since we don't have the option of actually wearing a helmet that gives us an unobstructed 360° view, you'll need to compensate for the game itself.
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Postby elitewolverine » Thu May 29, 2008 7:45 am

hana the top part is actually usable screens...was going to add a third in the middle....

as for the leg space yes i agree, but then again, the only way of not "waisting" space is to move the camera so far foward you loose part of the cock pit itself....and the radar screen in a very functional place....maybe i could move the radar up and move the mfd over to the side....hmmmm

the warhammer is a long nosed cockpit much like a fighter, i took the actual dimensions of the model itself and just modeled a interior.

so i dont know where to go from there, the warhammer has a thin narrow view for a long range fighter. in other words the way he sits...

hmmm maybe i could shorten how far the front dash goes into the cockpit itself, maybe that would eliminate the leg area, but then you would loose the radar screen...

looks like the thin narrow cockpit of the warhammer is a catch 22 for a designer....ill take another stab at it tmw right now im dead tired from moving my house from 9am to 10pm into a new home....

hopefully i wont have to alter the texture to much, wont be hard just time consuming lol....well see
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Postby Hana Yuriko » Thu May 29, 2008 11:22 am

Sounds like you're having difficulty with scale of the model itself. One problem with BT is that the designs themselves aren't consistent. If you've seen the intro video for... MW3 (I think) where it had a close-up of a Commando's cockpit, the cockpit area was tiny, making the Commando itself look extremely huge. While the intro to MW4 had cockpits that were a more reasonable size.

The RoboTech RPG lists the Excalibur - the Whammy's Macross/RoboTech name, at 11.27m tall at 31t weight. The Warhammer keeps the height, but more than doubles the weight.

With 11.27m, your cockpit would be about 4mx2m. Googling dimensions gave me a rough estimate of 2.4m from back to front for a F-16 cockpit (with all that gear crammed in). Plus IS 'Mech cockpits are comparatively roomy. Complete with a fusion powered toilet in the back! Clan pilots on the other hand aren't so lucky.

I would guess that the control panel for the Whammy isn't crammed up against the front of the cockpit. So that gives you plenty of room to design your control surface and have a large window. Of course that goes back to the optimization of your layout.
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Postby Smoking_Mirror » Thu May 29, 2008 11:49 am

check these for different cockpit solutions...

Image

Image

Image

I think the third one is the best to go for gameplay wise. You want a lot of space of action and just a little reminder that you are a pilot.

The first would be more realistic, but aterrible mistake in the area of gameplay.

The second one would be cool if you could have working instruments, but I don't think that's going to happen....
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Postby jasper_ward » Thu May 29, 2008 4:31 pm

why does it have to be cockpit extensive, in several of the books, including the Warrior and Blood of Kerensky series, its mentioned that alot of mechs have 360* Camera and sensor views with some sort of monitor setup that projects most of the information into a HUD like view.

That being said, I've flown Pipers and a few warbirds such as p-40's, T-6's, and was luck enough to ride in an f-18, the 18 has the most amazing view of any plane I've ever been in, that raised seat with a bubble canopy is great, but yes, most planes have a very constricted view, lol, in the Piper Cub that I learned to fly in, taxiing was such a pain in the rear, had to go back and forth and look out the sides to even see if we were anywhere near were we were supposed to be.

I agree that the cockpit view adds alot the the sim flavor of the game, but if it does happen, I'd like to see the option of a HUD view, both versions fit fluff, and each of us has our preferences. Plus... in 1000 years, if they havn't made better cockpit designs than the crap from 50 years ago... may (place whatever diety you beleive in ) help us all

I prefer the Hud view, maby even clean up what we have now and just do numbers on the screen with the option of pulling up a map when needed. I would like to see the option for those who like the cockpit look to go with that.

Oh, of the above options i like the third, but we don't really need to see the legs and joysticks, the MFD's, buttons, and HUD would be nice as long as they all function, but with the above design, almost a third of it could be cut off and still be completely funtional
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Postby felderup » Thu May 29, 2008 11:02 pm

since somebody brings up robotech/macross, there's some pictures
http://www.new-un-spacy.com/sdfmacross/ ... ockpit.gif
that show how long and thin the cockpit is, it appears as if the cockpit is almost entirely virtual, with the possibility of some small side windows.
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Postby Smoking_Mirror » Thu May 29, 2008 11:33 pm

There's basically two considerations to take in to account when designing a cockpit.

#1 no transparency. Although you can use the greenlight hud effect, it can't be projected on to a transparent glass. If you render a transparent texture through another transparent texture, the second cancels out the first and the one furthest from the camera disappears. Try firing the ppcs near water and see what I mean. The green light hud effect is not really 3d rendered in game but is an overlay, so it's OK.

#2 if you use a model it will be rendered orthographically, not with perspective.

here's the perpective view; Image

so you need to build a model which takes advantage of this and uses lots of non-90 degree angles. However, the screens and displays do need to be at flat 90 angles to the camera in order to easily overlay the HUD screens.

and the ortho view;
Image
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Postby Smoking_Mirror » Thu May 29, 2008 11:38 pm

To be honest I've always thought that battle tech cockpits in Heavy and Assault mechs should be mostly virtual screens and camera outputs, with a small area of actual space to see out of if the sensors fail, sort of as a last resort.
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Postby elitewolverine » Fri May 30, 2008 5:50 am

this to me is one of the most famous cockpit pictures from the actual battltech cockpit.

it has a dual weilded joystick (almost like a fighter ie throttle/flight stick) and tons of buttons and diodes...

hell it even has manual switches in the top left like a passanger 747 or bomber would...

to me its kinda like both worlds for the mechwarrior. I think in tip top shape the mech ran virtually fly by wire, but as the fight goes on and shit happens, the pilot needs manual controll (even open glass view) so that to the extent no matter how damage his mech is it can still fight...

hell it reminds me of a shot in one of the battletech rules of warfare books at the very end when your doing the cbill calculations there is a mech coming out of water with a battle split open cockpit leaving the mech open to air, the arm armor peeled firing a UAC Gun and the left arm destroyed....yet it was still going, no electro gizmo would survey that abuse, so manual stuff is essential...

but i think i have a good design ill show later...especially since i found out its going to be rendered orthro style not perspective....

Image
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Postby Smoking_Mirror » Fri May 30, 2008 10:23 am

Well.... Perhaps you could render it perspective and then use the resulting texture as an overlay.

I'm not really sure what Dirk's plan is, but I remember when he showed me some demonstrations of implementation, it was all orthographic.
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Postby adamsderk » Fri May 30, 2008 3:18 pm

Guys,

Well, my plan on virtual cockpits is to not have one :) That's because I plan on building a real one around the game.

However, i realize that not everyone will be doing that, so I'm game to put in a virtual cockpit. There are a couple ways to do it as discussed here, but the most impressive (and computationally expensive) is to put in a 3d model of the cockpit around the camera, but mapping actual instruments will be tricky.

The easiest is to render a bitmap of the cockpit and have it as an overlay of the screen, since it is the same as everything else, the displays are easy to map onto it (although I'm not sure about doing them in perspective).

I was impressed with the movement of the cockpit in Mechwarrior 3 and figure I would add that in as it increased the feeling of actually being in the machine.

Thanks.
Image
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Postby Smoking_Mirror » Sat May 31, 2008 1:09 pm

I'm all for the 3d model being used, but with orthographic rendering, you will have to move the model A lot, to get a sense of any movement.

Also I think perhaps an overlay would be able to have more detail. Tubes, valves, switches etc...
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Postby elitewolverine » Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:34 am

what about a mixture of both?

id the modeled cockpit is rendered in 3d perspective...but any panels associated with the actual instrument panels need to be at a 90degree angle to the camera so as to render flat in perspective...

this way its easy to map the instruments (usable ones) and then of course you get the rest of the 3d cockpit...?

maybe i could take a crack at the code instrument code her on the warhammer model i have...see if its viable to map them in 3d or to map them on a 3d perspective 90angle idea etc...

that is if you dont mind...
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Postby elitewolverine » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:02 am

well even though the cockpit isnt fully done (still playing with it)...

the mech model is, right now im just finishing up the texture file so i can append them to the warhammer for rendering...

as well as cutting up the torsos and proper naming...

should i do a tiny texture remapping with Smoking Mirrors texture layout in mind? or just leave as is?
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