The BlackJack (TRO, not Omni)

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The BlackJack (TRO, not Omni)

Postby elitewolverine » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 am

there is two versions, and i chose the TRO one as to the more popular Omni version...

its under 1400 polys so far, i could go lower but since im far from 2k polys i think asthetically i will keep it around that number...

for the most part its done, just looking for a way to do the ankle joints better...

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Postby Smoking_Mirror » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:37 am

Looks great so far.

Try moving the limbs around in thier natural arcs of movement. Think about how the joints will look during running or if the arms are tracking at right angles to the body when an enemy is out of the field of view.

Sometimes an ugly joint will be exposed this way, and sometimes you'll see that a particular joint style is over complicated for what is needed. You'll also highlight any problems with intersection this way, where arms and legs become tangled or overlap when twisting and running.

1400 polys or lower is a good target, I think Derk would prefer that for most mechs. The 2000 poly upper limit is kind of a theoretical maximum, rather than a suggested target.
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Postby elitewolverine » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:17 am

sounds good, im really happy with the knee joint once its "extended" as its pretty cannon style and realistic...to me the ankle in the tro/omni would snap and no real easy way to put it in...

as far as the arm joints, its like the jagermech and has no arm side to side firing arch....if im not mistaken i thought these was one of the few mechs that had a either huge torso twist arch or a 360 one. Its definately "physically" designed that way....But i never used the blackjack in the board game and i really havent heard anything about it if it was able to do that...and in all pics and minis the arms are straight up and down...

so then my question is this....in the TRO pics there is no physical way of the arms being able to go side to side, and if it does, its going to be a very ugly no-realistic joint...so what "design choice do i do?"

as for the poly limit, that sounds about right, since he says 1k-2k, i think 1400-1600 is probably the best balance of bang for buck as long as its not waisted, and if i needed to, i can easily cut the verts on the round torso area, and probably will once i start to uv wrap and realize they are not going to be seen/used...so it will probably be lower :)
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Postby Smoking_Mirror » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:39 am

well, when it's finished add a note along with the model requesting a 360 torso twist. In Battletech it seems that all mechs can torso twist up to 90 degrees left or right. Of course when you get to simulator level it's obvious that some should be able to twist more, or less than that.

Mostly I think that 360 torso twists should be reserved for fast mechs with no jumpjets, or medium to heavy mechs with a lot of weapons in the torso rather than the arms. It'll give a good game balance.
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Postby adamsderk » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:51 pm

Guys,

The game is set up based on the rules, but modified by the physical design. The torso firing arc is 90 degrees to each side, the arms can fire an additional 30 degrees, and the twist can be up to 30 degrees. That means a Mech with articulating arms can fire directly behind it at 180 degrees, however the torso weapons can only fire up to 120 degrees to each side.

Since the Blackjack does not have elbows to allow the arms to swing out, it can fire up to 120 degrees to each side, but all the weapons will be available at all times.

However, certain designs without either hand actuator are allowed to "flip" their arms in combat to be able to fire directly behind them, but arm weapons only. The Black jack would be one of them.

Thanks.

P.S. The arm twist is locked by default (so players don't get confused when some of their weapons won't fire). If you want to get the full range you have to push shift-b in combat to toggle to full range. This obviously applies only to Mechs that support it. As well, pressing b in combat will flip the arms back and forth in Mechs that support it.
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Postby Smoking_Mirror » Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:25 am

That's right, if it has all the weapons in the arms rather than the torso, and those arms are "gun arms" rather than "manipulator arms" then they can flip them and shoot behind. That gives them a firing solution in all four quadrants, front and rear, left and right. There's no need for a 360 degree twist. If some of the guns are in the torso it means that only part of their available firepower can be flipped, but that they have less chance of losing all their weapons with the arms destroyed.

So on the plus side these mechs can shoot in any direction. On the minus side they can't punch with those arms (that seems to be the case in Megamek when I tried it the other day).

On the other hand mechs with punching arms can usually swing them out to the sides, getting good coverage of the front and sides, but no rear arc.

That's good game balance, it keeps the various designs fairly equal, as long as you don't allow punching with gun arms.

But then the whole point of punching is that you avoid the chance of a fall, which you would otherwise get with a kick attack...

From playing megamek I've noticed that falls are a big part of the game, with several of the mechs int he game I played being destroyed not by enemy fire directly, but by damage to the pilot and machine sustained during falls. Maybe it's time to review whether BTS should include falls in the game. It does seem to be a big part of game balance. I'll open a topic about it in the general discussion forum maybe.
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Postby elitewolverine » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:11 am

That is correct about the arm flip...and not full torso twist

i knew there was something "360" idea that would allow the arm flip without any penalty in the game...

i just havent played the board game since i was about a sophmore in HS and well HS was a good 8yrs back sooooo...

i should freshen up on the game, i think in my local area there is a CBT club that even uses the ironwinds models and 3d terrain...

anyhow next update will be the textures
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Postby elitewolverine » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:44 am

well the blackjack is done...sweet another one down and another one to start on (dont know which yet)...

just gotta finish up the whole masks for it and ill package this up and the kodiak and send them to off to adam...

it will take me about a day to do so, so if you have anyrequest of what i might do next be my guest to let me know cause the models i like are in the era of 3025-3060, and i know those will be in the game, but i kinda wanted to do the SLDF mechs first before i devulge into the later ones...

and pics of the finished result

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Postby Smoking_Mirror » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:13 am

Looks good, have you thought about doing any vehicles?

Otherwise the Avatar, Chimera or Raven are all good later era IS mechs (the early era is pretty well covered already).

If you want Star league era, how about the Champion, Quickdraw or Striker? they're all good designs, and fun to make, if a little Fugly.

I'm planning a Grasshopper and a reseen Battlemaster next, so don't do those. ^-^
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Postby elitewolverine » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:08 pm

Smoking_Mirror wrote:Looks good, have you thought about doing any vehicles?

Otherwise the Avatar, Chimera or Raven are all good later era IS mechs (the early era is pretty well covered already).

If you want Star league era, how about the Champion, Quickdraw or Striker? they're all good designs, and fun to make, if a little Fugly.

I'm planning a Grasshopper and a reseen Battlemaster next, so don't do those. ^-^


thanx

Hmmm vehicles, ill give it a thought...and the quickdraw was one of them that i was thinking about...so i think i might go with that...

as well as you doing the reseen battlemaster i hope you dont mind me laying claim to the unseen version, it was one of my friends like ungodly favorite mech during my board years, and would love to take a stab at it, the unseen version that is :)
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Postby Smoking_Mirror » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:23 pm

OK, I prefer the Re-seen versions of the mechs anyway. ^-^
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Postby LeonKerensky » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:55 pm

elitewolverine wrote:well the blackjack is done...sweet another one down and another one to start on (dont know which yet)...


cool! do you have a template for it yet?
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Postby elitewolverine » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:59 am

sorry for the slow feedback on my part, i just had to do a ton of training for my supervisor job in collections and that took a huge amount of my time, and as well learning a brand new system etc etc...

but yes i have the template and i believe i submitted it to adam, i know my warhammer model texture had a prob so ill resubmit that as well to him...

and i still have all the files so ill send them in very soon...hopefully after this weekend i can get right back to helping you all...

as well ill be testing some animations for myself with blender and torque
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Postby LeonKerensky » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:59 am

elitewolverine wrote:sorry for the slow feedback on my part, i just had to do a ton of training for my supervisor job in collections and that took a huge amount of my time, and as well learning a brand new system etc etc...

but yes i have the template and i believe i submitted it to adam, i know my warhammer model texture had a prob so ill resubmit that as well to him...

and i still have all the files so ill send them in very soon...hopefully after this weekend i can get right back to helping you all...

as well ill be testing some animations for myself with blender and torque


GREAT! :) i'll do my best when it's done
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